AUGUSTA -- Services will be cut as the state looks for ways to balance the budget, Department of Health and Human Services Commissioner Brenda Harvey said Tuesday.

Just what services, and how deep the cuts will go, are still to be determined.

"We don't have any place to go except reductions to services," Harvey told members of the Legislature's Health and Human Services Committee. "There's no way we're going to meet our target without making significant changes to the scope of services people need."

State lawmakers -- Health and Human Services Committee members, in particular -- continue to struggle with a fluctuating budget picture that has them looking for $9 million one minute and $64 million or more the next.

That's because there are several things happening at once.

First, lawmakers are looking to cut $30 million from the 2011 state budget. Of that, the Department of Health and Human Services was told to cut $9 million.

Second, lagging state revenues mean a hole in the budget of $300 million to $400 million. Revenue forecasters meet again Friday, but a final report from them is not due until Dec. 1.

And third, Gov. John Baldacci is expected to announce a curtailment order Friday that would put a stop to state spending in certain areas to help balance the current budget.

Baldacci has limited powers with a curtailment, and lawmakers can change what he's done when they return in January.

"The longer you go into the fiscal year, the harder the cuts are to make," said David Farmer, Baldacci's deputy chief of staff.

The departments of Health and Human Services and Education typically take the brunt of major state cuts, because those two departments make up 72 percent of the state's $5.8 billion, two-year budget.

Harvey said that, in addition to the $9 million, she was originally told to find another $64 million in savings. But she expects that $64 million to grow significantly -- possibly doubling -- once revenue projections are complete.

"I'm working to a substantially larger number," she said. "We are working seven days a week at this and we are not there."

With all the uncertainty, committee members said they did not feel comfortable making recommendations for cuts.

"If we are really going to look at the cutting of services and to do it in a chunk-by-chunk basis, it doesn't allow us to do the planning," said House Committee Chairwoman Anne Perry, D-Calais. "We need to have a sense of what the whole picture is."

Harvey also asked the committee whether it thought she should move forward with a bill suggesting an increase in fees because of a $2 million shortfall in public health programs.

For example, she said the health-inspection program that includes restaurants and youth camps has a $265,000 shortfall. The subsurface wastewater fund has a $450,000 shortfall and the health lab has a $340,000 deficit, she said.

"At this point, we are at the edge of accounts where we will have a hard time paying staff," she said. "It's week by week."

State law requires that those programs be self-supporting, and the way to raise that money is through increased fees, she said.

Most legislators asked for more information, such as a list of what the fees are now, which ones would be increased and how those fees compare to what other states charge for the same services.

Rep. Patricia Jones, D-Mount Vernon, said she's gotten several complaints recently because the state increased the fee to get a copy of a birth certificate from $15 to $60.

"I'm hearing from the public, 'What are they doing to us?'" she said. "It's not going to be well received."

Harvey said she realizes it is a politically charged decision and asked for further guidance from the committee.

When she looks at the budget as a whole, Harvey said because of federal funds and stimulus money, there aren't a lot of places where the department can look to cut spending.

"For the public that says, 'They should just cut the fat' -- it isn't there," Harvey said.

Susan Cover -- 620-7015

scover@centralmaine.com